Fin du débat, questions spectateurs .

Salam alaykoum .

jJe souhaite que ce débat a plut aux lecteurs autant qu'il m'a plut, voici les questions des questions de spectateurs .

Questions from the audience.

Questioner #1 [Farrell Till]: Michael,you remember in our debate in Seattle, I questioned you extensively about this matter that came up tonight in the debate, the rejection of miracle claims. I won't ask again the specific question that I asked you, but I cited several instances from non-biblical literature that was written at the same time that the New Testament documents were written, or about the same time, and I asked you, "Do you believe that that really happened?" And you always said, "I'd have to investigate that. I'd have to investigate that. I'd have to investigate that." And these were miracle claims from the works of Josephus, Seutonius, Tacitus, and so on. I wonder if you have investigated those, and if you have any opinion on them now. Do you accept any nonbiblical claim of a miracle. Can you think of one? You said "No" in the debate.

Horner: I think your point is well taken, Farrell, that I should investigate those, and I admit that between our debate and this debate I haven't yet done that. Part of the reason is that one has only so much time, and I'm trying to decide, what should I spend my time doing? And, there's not strong testimony from other people saying that, you know, that here's something that is very likely historically accurate, you should check it out. And so that's why it's a little bit farther down on my list. But, I will get to those.

Farrell Till: So, you would say that it's true that you cannot think of a single nonbiblical miracle claim that you would say actually happened.

Horner: Well, at this point, I don't know. I wouldn't rule it out as a possibility. I just don't know at this point.

Questioner #2: Hi, Mr. Barker. Can you hear me? Hello? I think I went to the wrong debate, seriously, because I thought we were . . . it says, "Did Jesus Rise From The Dead?" and we debated, "Is the Bible completely accurate?" and "Is it a bodily or a spiritual resurrection?" and I want to hear if he rose or not. And you're a person who is debating about a person that you don't believe in and you're defending a hypothesis that you don't believe in. So it seemed a little strange to me. I just wanted to make that comment. And you're having an "evolution" from somebody who didn't exist at all. So, therefore, all this stuff that you were talking about tonight, is that just a bunch of people in a room sitting there and making up these stories? Those are my comments, and you can respond to those.

My question is, you were a songwriter. If I were to write a song about Bill Clinton and mention that he was 40th, whatever, president, and where he was born, and I didn't mention that he lived in the White House, would be that be strong historical evidence that he didn't live in the White House?

Barker: Thanks. No, Jesus did not rise from the dead. I don't believe he did. The reason I selected my hypothesis tonight is to show that there is an alternative hypothesis that is better than Mike's, that accounts for the facts better than Mike's. I realize coming into tonight's debate that to discuss the general historicity of Jesus was a bit far out of field. For example, Mike was wrong when he said Tacitus mentioned Jesus. Tacitus did not mention Jesus. He mentioned a "Christ," but he did not mention the name "Jesus." And there were many Christs at that time. There were many self-proclaimed first-century Messiahs. That would be a wonderful debate. Maybe we should have that debate next time, because it's really juicy, and it's good. I did not say Josephus was written in the fourth century, by the way. I said that little passage about Jesus was inserted in the fourth century.

Horner: Oh, okay.

Barker: It's absent from the early copies of the writings of Josephus. It does not appear in history until the beginning of the fourth century. Unless you have some evidence that it did appear before the beginning [end] of the first century, then we have to treat that like the interpolation that it was. Josephus did not mention Jesus Christ.

No, of course not. You can write . . . songs are poetic, right. One of my points was that the song that Paul was quoting was poetic, and that's one of the earmarks of legend, that biblical scholars say. They say, "Look at Luke and Matthew, [they] are writing in straight, historical narrative, right? If that was committed to oral memory and written down later, why wasn't that put in a poetic way. So the whole point of it being poetic shows that it shares some similarities with other legendary events that were not recited as history but as a remembering back into the far past. So, no, I don't believe Jesus rose from the dead. How could someone who didn't really exist rise from the dead? But that's another debate. I'm sorry we can't go into it.

Horner: Yeah, I'm sorry I misunderstood you about Josephus there. That testimony in Flavianum, I admit, has been altered as Christian interpolation there, and that's widely agreed upon. But I don't agree that it wasn't present in another form in the earliest forms of Josephus. I argue that a case can be made that it was present, but not in its sort of Christianized form, but it was present enough to show that, you know, Jesus existed, but just not the more, you know, clearly Christian claims that were made by Josephus. And Tacitus, no scholars think that Tacitus was talking about another Christ. He was talking about Jesus Christ when you look at the context, very clearly.

Questioner #3: Okay, first I'd like to say, Barker, me and my friend, Justin, we have taken up the challenge to harmonize every detail in the Resurrection accounts, and we have done it. And I have it in my dorm room right now. It's about six pages. We did it. And we've harmonized every detail. So, even us two college students have done it.

But I would like to ask Dr. Horner . . .

Horner: Thank you for that honorary doctorate. [laughter]

Questioner #3: Mr. Horner. I'd like to hear some of the more, more of the evidence that the Apostle Paul was aware of the teachings of Jesus and what Jesus did, in other words, that he really was aware of the core historical events surrounding the life of Jesus.

Horner: Well, I'm not sure how to respond to that, to be quite honest with you, because it is true that he doesn't quote Jesus very much in his writings. but my argument there was that he didn't need to, given the purpose of his particular letters, and the fact that that material was already around. It was already present. And I think that what Paul say of his theology is quite consistent with what we see in the writings about Jesus. So, unless you're thinking of something specific, give me a clue, but I'm not quite sure if I know what you're . . .

Questioner #3: Well, I was thinking, like I Corinthians 11, where Paul quotes the Last Supper, the tradition about the Last Supper, and stuff, if that relates into this at all.

Horner: Okay, well, no, that's a good point. I mean, there are some places, albeit not very many, where Paul does seem to be quoting the historical Jesus, yeah.

Dan: Well, I agree . . . we get a minute to respond . . . I agree that Paul did mention the crucifixion and the burial, of course some of the events, but none of the miracles, none of the Gospel sayings of Jesus. That's all I was saying.

Questioner #3: Oh. She told me I could ask one more question. Sorry. First Corinthians 15:3-8, Paul receiving that from the, very early from the apostles, or whatever, I'd like to hear a little bit more on that.

Horner: Okay, yeah, Paul. The exact words of Paul are, "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance," and then he quotes this saying: Christ died, buried, et cetera. And he's using technical Jewish language there for the passing on of important information and tradition. He said he received it, and he's passing it on to others, and the language being used there shows that he's taking great care to pass on something that is accurate and true. And, so, that's the context of this saying.

Questioner #4: Mr. Barker, I just had one question I'd like to ask,out of curiosity, because I've heard a lot of the arguments you've made before. One argument I would pose against that is we have several of the apostles that were martyred, we have Paul who had a rather interesting life being abused and misused by both the Jewish and Roman authorities. What possible motivation would they have had if the Resurrection did not take place, or if they did not believe in Jesus as their Savior?

Barker: First of all, you don't know how they died. This was much later in Christian tradition, in the second century, when the stories about their deaths and torturing came about. We have no way of really knowing how these people died. These were stories that even Mike admits come from a period of history when there was all sorts of wild, crazy, Paul Bunyan embellishments. The stories about the deaths of the disciples . . . except for Stephen -- Stephen was one who was stoned to death, and he wasn't a close follower of Jesus -- and Judas -- Judas had two different accounts of his death which are contradictory -- except for those two, we don't know how any of them died. We do know that a lot of religions have their martyrs. Martyrdom was a big concept in Judaism. The people as Masada allowed themselves to be martyred for their faith. The Muslim extremist who drove a truck full of explosives into the American embassy in Beirut became a martyr for his faith. Does that prove that it was right? The Hari Kari bombers were dying for their faith. The Hindu [Buddhist] monk who set himself on fire in protest of the Viet Nam war. Martyrdom is a thing that happens in a lot of religions where people are committed. Look at these Hasad people -- they're calling it a "wonderful" thing to kill themselves as martyrs for the faith. So, if it proves Christianity is true, it proves all the other religions are true as well.

Horner: I'm glad this was brought up because this is a complete misunderstanding that both Mr. Barker and Mr. Till have done. They say that just because you have martyrs doesn't prove that the religion is true. But that's not the argument we're giving. We're raising that point not as a positive case for the truth of the Resurrection; we're raising it in defense of their claim that these people are liars. And in defense of that claim, it works. Liars make very poor martyrs. And we do have information from the end of the first century, from Clement of Rome in AD 96, from Ignatius in his letter to the Romans, from a book called the Ascension of Isaiah around the same time period, that Peter and Paul were martyred. So we do have information about that.

Questioner #5: My question is for Mr. Horner. You said that it takes about 80 years, two generations or something, for myth to overcome factual accounts of an event. Okay, now, lets just assume that that's true. I mean, I don't know whether it is; let's just assume that it is. If that's the case, isn't that only on events that are true? For instance, if I write a fictitious story, it's fictitious now. It doesn't take 80 years to become fictitious. It's fictitious right now. But if I write a true story, then maybe it would take 80 years, or whatever, for maybe fictitious accounts of what I claim to be true to happen. So, to me it seems like what you are doing is you are assuming that the Resurrection is true, and then saying, now, how can these people, later, how can myth happen? Okay, what if it was a myth right to begin with? You're assuming it's true . . .

[short break in the recording]

. . . the case.

Horner: I don't think so. We're asking the question, "Is this historically reliable, or is it legend?" with an open agnostic approach, saying, "We don't know." And given the principle that it takes longer than two generations for legend to prevail over fact, then these writings which were produced within that time frame are more likely reliable than legendary. That's the logic of the argument. It's not . . . you don't begin with the assumption that it's true.

Questioner #5: Well, what if I wrote a fictitious story? Isn't it false right now?

Horner: Yes. But, so?

Questioner #5: So, what if they wrote, what if what they wrote was fictitious?

Horner: But that's what's called a counter-factual, in philosophy. What we're . . . how do we find out? What criteria do we use to find out whether it's fictitious or legendary, or historically reliable? And I'm saying one of the criteria that's been shown in historical research by Professor Sherwin-White, is that it takes more than two generations, because the eye-witnesses are around, and a fictitious or legendary story that would arise earlier would not be accepted, but these writings by the disciples and followers of Jesus were accepted by the early church, by the eyewitnesses.

Questioner #5: It's only true, only if it's true to begin with, would that be the case.

Horner: I don't think so.

Barker: I agree with the questioner that you have a circular argument here. You are assuming that from the beginning that these are historically accurate accounts, that needed time to be changed, right? You just told me earlier that the miracle at Medjugorje could have been a legend, it could be a legend. You used that word "legend," and you said it . . . two days after it happened. Well, obviously, there . . . you don't need time . . . the story at Medjugorje, I believe is a fiction. I don't believe it happened, and I don't believe you do either. I'd be willing to have my mind changed, but, I don't think you believe that the Virgin Mary bodily rose . . . I mean, should we look for the empty tomb of Mary? I mean, don't think you really believe that, even though you are open like I am to the possibility. You still said that it could be legendary, even a day or two after the event. So, you're falling all over yourself, here, see, by first saying that it takes time for the legend to develop -- it takes two or three generations for it to develop, to replace the fact . . .

Horner: To "replace."

Barker: . . . the questioner is asking . . .

Questioner #5: Right. So if it is replacing a fact, it would have to be a fact in order to replace it.

Barker: Yeah, it's replacing, so it's a circular argument. And you've already answered the question -- this was my response.

Horner: Yeah.

Questioner #6: Okay, Mr. Barker. I have first just a couple of comments, and then a question. One comment, just short, on the Josephus, the testimony of Flavianum. I have personally looked into it, myself, and the vast majority of the scholars would agree with Mr. Horner, who deal specifically with this issue that Josephus wrote something about Jesus, that the entire thing is not an interpolation. And also, just something that I've noticed in your debate, as well as some of you answers to people's questions: you assert a lot of things in the Gospels and in the New Testament are contradictions, and that you assert that some of the things that Mr. Horner says are contradictions, and they're not contradictions at all, and it seems that you don't really understand what a contradiction is.

Barker: For example?

Questioner #6: For example, the two so-called contradictory accounts of Judas' death. Okay. One account is that he hung himself, the other account says that he fell off of a cliff. Okay, if that were a contradiction, it would be one account saying "he hung himself," and another account saying "he did not hang himself." We don't have that. We have one account saying he hung himself and another account saying he fell off a cliff. Both of those are possible. They're not mutually exclusive ideas, so you do not . . .

Barker: Oh, the rope broke, and then his body fell off . . .

Questioner #6: Right. They're not mutually exclusive ideas . . .

Farrell Till [from audience]: He fell headlong.

Questioner #6: . . .They are possible. So they are not a contradiction.

Moderator: Could you get to the question, please?

Barker: He fell on his head, is that what it said?

Farrell Till [from audience]: He fell headlong.

Barker: He fell headlong.

Questioner #6: Right. What I'm saying is that, yes, we have two stories that don't, if they are part of the same story, they don't both give the same story, but that's not a contradiction because they're not mutually exclusive ideas . . .

Moderator [Greg Chenoweth]: Could you get to the question, please?

Questioner #6: . . . and they do not contradict each other . . .

Moderator: Let's get on with the debate.

Questioner #6: But my question was . . . Sorry, Greg. I didn't want to take that long with it, but that was just a comment. My question was, you contradict yourself, and I wondered why. Why you say that your hypothesis is "nice" because it doesn't force anybody to believe in the Resurrection, but then you assert that God is perhaps "not nice" because he does not force us to believe in the Resurrection. Your words were, "Doesn't he care more than that?" As if, he cares for us, so he ought to force us to believe. But you suggested that your hypothesis is nice because it does not force us to believe. So, I was wondering what the contradiction is there. Why you think that your hypothesis is nice, but God is not.

Barker: So, you think God is being deliberately a little bit ambiguous so that we have room for faith, is that what you're suggesting? That's the way he communicates this crucial message to us, by being . . . giving us a tantalizing amount so that we still have to take that leap of faith. That's the whole idea, right?

Questioner #6: Well, all history is like that.

Barker: If that kind of a god existed, I couldn't respect that god anyway. I mean, that's my business. I could not respect a god like that, who would toy with us.

Questioner #6: My question was, why don't you respect a god who allows you not to believe facts, but then you turn around and pose a hypothesis that allows you not to believe facts?

Barker: Because one of the allowances deals with what history is saying, and the other one deals with what theology is saying. Theology says God may or may not give us free will. But I'm talking about what history allows us, and according to Mike's hypothesis, the brute facts of history must force us to accept, or to take very seriously the Resurrection. Under the theological question of God's -- whatever you want to call it, it's nonsensical to me now. I used to preach it but it's nonsense -- we have a whole different question of free will. So, we're comparing apples and oranges here. And maybe I have contradicted myself. I'm not perfect either. I'd be happy to admit that I made a mistake, and if I did, I'm sorry. So, I'm not omniscient and omnipotent.

[From the audience]: So should we throw out your whole testimony if you lied [like?]? [laughter]

Barker: If you want to . . . [more (unintelligible) audience remarks, applause]

Moderator: Could we refrain our comments from the audience, please?

Barker: I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm looking at the historical evidences.

Moderator: Please refrain from commenting from the audience. If you have a comment, please go to the microphone in respect for our speakers.

Horner: Yeah. I think the questioner did identify a contradiction, but I think it was inadvertent. I mean, I don't think Dan realized that he did make one there. But Blaise Pascal said something that is relevant here. He said, "God has given us evidence sufficiently clear to convince those with an open heart and mind, but evidence sufficiently vague so as not to compel those whose hearts and minds are closed." True, God could have made the evidence better, stronger than it is. Why didn't he? I think, possibly, it's because he doesn't want to compel people to their knees who really don't want anything to do with him.

Barker: Like me.

Horner: Possibly like like you. And if the evidence . . . and if somebody doesn't want anything to do with God, they will not find the evidence sufficient. He's got the evidence in exactly the right amount . . .

Barker: That's ad hominem.

Horner: . . . that those that are open, with their open heart and mind, will find the evidence sufficient.

Moderator: I think we're overtime. Mr. Horner?

Questioner #7: I think my question, for just directly on what you just said, it seems to me you either know something, or you have faith in it. If you can know it with certainty, then there's no room for faith. For example, I know you're sitting there. I can't have faith in you sitting there. It's simply a fact. If you prove your case as well as you set out to prove, you really do deny any element of faith. It becomes an intellectual exercise. It seems to me a self-defeating argument from the start. If you could do your job really, really well, you would eliminate the need for faith, in fact, any room for it. Or am I misunderstanding this approach?

Horner: I'm glad you asked the question, because I think you're, in philosophy it's called "equivocating" on the word "faith." That is, the word "faith" can be used in more than one sense. When we mix up the two ways we use it, that's the problem. We sometimes use the word "faith" in the intellectual sense that we have a certain amount of evidence for a proposition, but it doesn't provide us with certainty, and so, we say, "Well, I believe it because I have a good probability." But that's not the way the Bible uses the word "faith," okay? The Bible assumes that there is enough evidence for God's existence and Jesus' claims to be God, the Resurrection. But the faith the Bible says we have to have goes beyond that. It says, "Given these historical facts, you then need to put your "trust," your personal trust, in God and Jesus, and that's a different use of the word "faith." Faith as trust. Like if I say, "I believe in God," that could mean, "I believe that God exists," or it could mean, "I put my trust in God." Which is it? Those are the two different ways that it can be used. So, my point is this. The evidence does give us . . . there's enough evidence that we can conclude, not with certainty, but with a high degree of probability, that the Christian claims are true. And we bridge that gap with the sort of intellectual sense of the word "faith." But that's not biblical faith. Then, one must make the decision either to put their faith in God, or not put their faith in God after they have made that intellectual decision.

Questioner #7: So, sir, in fact, you have been arguing for probability and not certainty.

Horner: That's, absolutely. That's right. That's right. We know very little with certainty, if anything at all.

Barker: I'd like to respond to that. Intellectual faith is irresponsible.

Horner: That's what science is. All science is probability, Dan.

Barker: Intellectual faith . . . if you have to accept an assertion by faith, you are admitting that that assertion cannot be accepted on its own merits. You need to make some kind of a leap outside of the merits of the argument itself. Otherwise, what is faith? In Hebrews [11:6] it said, "He that cometh to God must believe that He is." You don't know that God exists. You [to Horner] don't know that God exists. You must "believe" that he exists. That's what . . . faith is "the evidence of things not seen," [Hebrews 11:1], right? So any time anyone trumpets faith, that is an intellectual dishonesty. What we skeptics say is that it is better not to believe than to have a false answer. And your belief in Jesus is a false answer. You're jumping to conclusions. You're jumping outside of the evidence and you are . . . well, who knows what your personal motivations are? I'm not going to stoop to ad hominem like you just did to me about being "close minded." I think you are open minded. I think I'm open minded as well. I mean, I have demonstrated that I am able to change my mind, at least once, haven't I, from something that I used to preach. So, I'm quite open-minded, and would be happy to change my mind again if you come up with better evidence. After all, it would be stupid to ignore something like a god. What kind of a game would that be? I would have a million questions to ask this deity. But, the evidence is not strong enough. I am not going to prostitute my intellect to take that leap of faith, to believe something that is merely wishful thinking because it makes me have a chance of going to heaven and being eternally coddled by this deity, who has a vanity that's so insecure that he has to threaten me with eternal hell if I don't believe in him? I mean, what kind of respect could I give to a deity like that? [applause]

Questioner #8: If I might set up a question with a few comments. Drawing from the Bible, we must realize that the Resurrection was a fulfillment of prophecy. Isaiah 26 speaks clearly of that they are, that "with my dead body all men will be raised up with me. If we come unto him, we will have rest to our soul, and we shall live." Now, that is obviously not speaking in some abstract, or some complicated term, that we as believers can't realize, say, with Paul, that he didn't quote from Jesus directly, and yet that would for some reason make him ineffective or would annul anything that he taught as far as being one of the main advancers of the Scriptures. He quoted from the Law, from the Prophets, and from the Psalms, just as Jesus as he spoke to the eleven apostles . . .

Moderator: We need to get to the question, please.

Questioner #8: . . . he said that what is of the law and of the prophets and of the psalms must be fulfilled concerning me. Paul knew that he could draw from the existing Scriptures and bear out and confirm that the Resurrection was indeed a fulfillment of prophecy. It wasn't something that Jesus manifested or made up in the course of his three and a half year ministry . . .

Moderator: We need the question, please.

Questioner #8: . . . where he thought . . . Pardon?

Moderator: We need the question, please.

Questioner #8: One more thing. Jesus said . . .

Moderator: We need the question. I'm sorry, we need the question.

Questioner #8: . . . "I am the bread of life, I am the water of life." He knew in order for us to receive of those elements that there was going to be a Resurrection. Him dying on the cross does not provide the bread of life, and it does not provide the water of life. The water of life . . .

Moderator: Sir, we need to respect the time limit and either ask the question or please sit down.

Questioner #8: Well, okay. My question would be, how anyone who has been invited as we have to believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, by faith -- faith being, as he says, "the things that we have not seen." Thomas, in the famous statement of our Lord to him, was that, "Well, you've touched your hands into my wounds, and you have seen for yourself that I am resurrected, but greater is the reward for those who have not seen, but believed." And that is fundamental. Not that he, or anyone who is an atheist is our greatest enemy or threat. Jesus said . . .

Moderator: Sir, you have disrespected our time limits and I am going to ask you to sit down and go on to the next question. Thank you.

Questioner #8: Thank you.

Barker: I would only respond by saying that I used to preach that very sermon, just like you preached. And I have changed my mind.

Questioner #8 [from audience]: Well, if I could be given an opportunity, I think that you might have been following instruction at such a late date, as your intellectualism will not let your heart make room for the truth.

Questioner #9: I have a couple of questions. First question is, I'm interested in why you became an atheist. The second question, and I'm assuming that you're not over 50 years old, okay? And so my next question is, has to do with your attack on Peter's personality. You said that we shouldn't believe him because he's hot-tempered, and that you called him a liar, and quoted scriptures for doing that.

Barker: He called himself a liar.

Questioner #9: Okay. All right, that's fine. But, my . . . I just want to bring that out that you said that . . . and, so, what I'm . . . but what my question actually is, is, why should we, or why should I believe you, who spent half of your life getting up, living a lie, and being a minister and proclaiming God?

Barker: Okay. That's a fair question. And I can't answer why I became an atheist in just one quick question. I have a book on it. There are some excerpts of this book on the Internet, if you want to get some free chapters out of it. I became an atheist because I read, I studied, I looked at the evidences, and I changed my mind. What else can I say? I'm putting together a book of former clergy who are now unbelievers. Farrell Till has submitted a good chapter. We all have different reasons, but we all agree that reading, reading more than the prescribed lists. Reading broadens your mind. Reading had a lot to do with our "seeing the light," I think you would say. I'm not quite over 50. I just had . . . I shouldn't say "I just had" . . . but my family, I just had my third grandchild this [last] year, so I guess that makes me half a century old. I'm not asking you to believe me. My arguments are whether we should believe the history. I'm not asking you to believe that what I say is true or false. What if a Moslem in Iraq were to suddenly reject Islam and to come to Jesus. Would you question that person's conversion because they spent most of his life in Islam and preaching the wrong? Wouldn't you applaud the ability of the person to rise above their culture, to rise above their teaching and say, "Hey, you're thinking for yourself now! Great!" You would want that Moslem to do it, right? Because you want them to consider Christianity. Well, that's what I've done. I've considered my culture, my Christianity, my religion, and I have risen above it. There is a better way. Atheism is not a negative thing. There's a higher way. There's a higher moral way, that's more moral than the bible, more moral than Jesus, more moral than what the Christian Church has taught us. And if I were going to argue for atheism tonight, I would argue against the moral virtues of Christianity, but that's a different debate. So, I think what I'm doing is a good, positive thing.

Horner: Just a comment on that. I've read Dan's story, at least some of Dan's story, and it seems to be that his background was one of Pentecostalism, that seemed to be somewhat anti-intellectual. He really wasn't familiar with a lot of the arguments, and that's typical for a lot of Christians. And then, all of a sudden, he got exposed to some thinkers who challenged some of the traditional orthodox claims of Christianity, and just didn't have any defense to handle those. But what was missing, at that [time] was that he was not exposed at the same time to some of the good Christian scholars. The very best he was exposed to some popular stuff. But if at that same time as he was reading, you know, Thomas Paine, he was exposed to philosophers like William Lane Craig and Alvin Platinga and Thomas Morris and others, some of the top Christian philosophers right now, I wonder if things might have turned out a little bit different.

Questioner #10: I was just curious is you have any sense of peace, or what you feel about life after death?

Barker: Yeah, I feel much more peaceful now as an atheist than I ever did as a Christian, because as a Christian you've got all these . . . look at the Christian Church. There's thousands of denominations, they differ with each other, and they all claim that they are the right one, and they can prove it biblically . . .

Questioner #10: But, that's not my question. My question is, what do you think?

Barker: . . . and now that I have rejected that, I have a much better feeling of peace. I don't believe in life after death. That's wishful thinking. Albert Einstein said that there is no evidence for it. There was an eternity before I was born when I did not exist, and it did not bother me one bit. The same will be true after I'm dead. But I'm alive now, and this life is what is important. I don't want to sacrifice this life for some future pie in the sky or some promise, I mean, I'm not going to live my life because of fear of punishment of hell or because I'm going to be rewarded with the carrot of heaven. What kind of a morality is that? I would rather respect human rights and human dignity and human freedoms and live to make this world a better place. That gives me a purpose, much more peaceful, much more purposeful than Christianity, much more sensible, much more meaningful in the real world in which we live, spending time doing things that matter more than prayer and all those things. And so . . . that's my testimony. Personal testimony time!

Questioner #10: So, it ends with the grave. That's what you're saying?

Barker: Yep. And I'm happy with that.

Horner: Dan has brought up the concept of hell a couple of times, and I think it deserves a bit of a response. God doesn't send anyone to hell. That's not the motivation why people should become Christians. We each have the number-one choice to make in our life, and that is, do we want to commence a relationship with the Creator submit to Him as a creature to a Creator, or do we say, "No, thanks. I don't want that relationship"? Now, if we say, "No, thanks" to God, what can God do? Apart from, if you'll excuse the expression, spiritually raping us, he just has to give us our free choice to be apart, separate from Him. And that's all that hell is. Hell is just the complete absence of God. If God himself is the ground of all goodness, if goodness is the very nature of God, then being in the complete absence of God is being in the complete absence of goodness, and that's why hell is described in awful terms. The Bible talks about it as a fact, but the reason people should come to the Lord is not to avoid that, but because they want to love, trust and obey the Creator that gave them life and loves them. And the Christian life is life that is abundant now, plus in eternity.

Questioner #11: Thank you. I would like to ask one question. I believe and respect your opinion and everything, and I don't believe anyone owns the truth. Everyone has probably a bit of it. But I would like to ask, what is it that is in atheism? Personally I was raised as a Christian, as a default religion, by my parents, not that I chose it. But I would change to Islam or to any other religion if I find something that is comparably . . . say if Islam is better, what is it that is in atheism that you found? That probably is not a debate, and everything, about doubting the Christian . . . Personally I say I am a Doubting Thomas, but I am a Christian. I have found anything [in] atheism that I can say is so much better than being a Christian. And having studied as a Christian yourself, what is it that you find [in] atheism that is not so much in Christian that . . . did you find anything, any, say, definite -- there are no definite answers -- and having studied as a Christian, what changed your mind?

Barker: The freedom to think for myself was what was so seductive about freethinking and atheism. The bible says we should bring "every thought into captivity unto the obedience of Christ." The bible says "Lean not on your own understanding." The bible is anti-intellectual. The bible wants us to be like children. I don't like that. I have a mind; I want to use it. One of the biggest sins is to doubt, according to Christianity. The freedom to think for myself, to be able to be free of the restraints of Christianity or any other religious tradition. That me that's attractive; the idea that I'm not going to be eternally condemned because I have a question. The idea . . . who created hell? I mean, that hell that exists is there because God must have created it. Jesus phrased it in terms of weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, a physical place where we will have teeth, right? This hell, I don't believe this hell exists. I think it's . . . I'm surprised that in the 20th century, here we have an educated man who believes there is such a place as hell! I mean, really! Mike, really -- this is the 20th century. We use our minds. We use intellect, we use science, and you're taking some mish-mash writings from some ancient book by people who were religiously motivated, and you think it's true! You should be ashamed of yourself. In any event, atheism for me represents the freedom to think. It represents the freedom to search all avenues and follow the path wherever it leads. And if it leads back to Jesus, I'll go there. I'm not fighting God. If it leads there, I'll happily go there. I'm not stupid. I'm not dumb. I'm not closing my mind. I don't hate the whole concept of it. I do think the God of the bible is beneath dignity and beneath moral respect, the way he treats people, the way he acted, the way he committed genocide, the way he devalued women, and on and on. The way Jesus encouraged owning and beating slaves. For example, he never once spoke out against slavery in his entire life. And I could go on and on and show the shortcomings of Christianity, but that would be a different debate as well. Atheism brings me up to zero, and then things like humanism or feminism or social issues give me a purpose in life to go on and make this world a better place.

Horner: The Bible is not anti-intellectual. That is just a misrepresentation of the Scriptures. As I said, it implies that there's plenty of evidence for God's existence and the other Christian truth claims. But the problem with atheism . . . I mean, I agree with Dan that the issue of truth is really what is most important here, you know, which view is true: Christianity, or atheism, or some other view. And I think the evidence does show that the Christian hypothesis has much more evidence in its favor than atheism does. But there's another level here that can be looked at, and that is, even if the evidence for and against Christianity or atheism, if they were equal, they kind of balanced each other out, say, the second level here is that atheism cannot provide a basis or a foundation for ultimate significance, meaning and purpose and human dignity and objective morality. Whereas Christianity succeeds precisely in those same spots where atheism breaks down. So it's completely irrational to adopt a world view that can't give you a foundation for these very values that we need to live with day by day. All the atheist can do is play Let's Pretend. There's no ultimate meaning, purpose, significance to the universe, but let's pretend there's meaning and purpose, and I'll choose to do this today to give my life meaning. But it's just a game of Let's Pretend.

Questioner #12: Sir, in the midst of all your generalizations about how it is, people who are Christians are somehow in bondage or in restraint. Most Christians I know would not say that, and certainly would not believe, would believe the Scripture in saying that Jesus Christ has made them free, if they are truly to be free. But in the midst of your many generalizations, sir, you claim that it is foolish for God to leave room for you personal decision for faith in him. Let me ask you this, if you have a child, would you want your child to love you, and accept you by force or by choice? That's my question.

Barker: The thing about bondage was a Scripture verse that I quoted in -- what epistle is it, Thessalonians? -- to bring "every thought into captivity unto the obedience of Christ," it wasn't . . .

Horner: Second Corinthians 10:5, 3 to 5, in there.

Barker: Second Corinthians? It's been a long time, and it's getting fuzzy now. The idea of choice. If my child chooses to love me or not to love me, it should be based on my merits, not because I'm the authority figure. The bible says God should be loved because he is powerful, because he is the authority, because he's the one . . . the biblical morality is really a morality of "might makes right," because he's the one who created us. But if you look at the actions of that god of the bible, they do not inspire respect, moral respect. If you look at the way he treats people, if you look at the way he acted in history, if you look at the things he said, they do not inspire respect. So, if there is a God, if the God of the bible does exist, okay -- let's pretend that he does -- and he's asking me to make a choice, I'm going to give him very good reasons why I reject loving him, because he has not measured up to my idea of what a respectful moral authority should be. He's beneath respect of morality. There might be some other god outside of Christianity who is better than the god of the bible. This is hypothetical, obviously.

Questioner #12: But one thing, sir, you've made that your own personal decision, and you call -- I'm making just a word to summarize what you have called Mr. Horner -- is basically an "idiot" for believing anything outside what you believe, saying that if he believes opposite, or that if he does believe in this God, and does submit to this God, somehow he's some fool.

Barker: I never said that.

Questioner #12: No, you didn't say that, but you have implied that. The fact that he believes in a hell is absurd, according to your own . . .

Barker: Yeah, that is absurd.

Questioner #12: Yes. But that's all a part of the whole message, all a part of the whole thing.

Barker: But, see? My view is positive towards Mike. I think there's hope for Mike. [laughter]

Questioner #12: I think there's hope for you!

Barker: I think Mike can also be a part of that process of improving his theology and his philosophy and coming up to a better, more inclusive, more moral way of living. The Christian way of living is not a more moral way of living. And I think Mike is the way I used to be years ago, and I see a lot of myself in him . . .

Horner: Give me a break.

Barker: . . . and this is not condescending. This is not to condescend to him. It's just to say that some of us grow at different rates than others, and Mike's still a little further . . .

Horner: Give me a break! [laughing]

Questioner #12: With all due respect, sir, you are the way I was years ago. [applause]

Horner: Yeah. That's it. You see, I think the more Dan talks, the more he's revealing what's really deep down in his heart. Dan presumes to pass judgment upon God and his actions. He assumes that if he can't figure out why God would do X, Y and Z, then God can't have a good reason for doing X, Y, and Z. And therefore, he as a creature is not going to submit to his Creator. That's the ultimate decision we all have to make. Am I going to be autonomous and independent from my Creator, or am I going to acknowledge the fact that I am a creature, and submit to my Creator. And it seems that deep down in Dan's heart, that's the decision he's made. He does not want to submit to his Creator, and as a result of that, he, even without realizing it, I'm sure, has gone out of his way to find arguments to support that initial moral and spiritual decision that took place a number of years ago.

Barker: But I am proud of that fact, that I do not submit to that Creator. I admit that openly.

Horner: That's exactly my point. Exactly my point.

Barker: I'm happy with that. And I think it's a better position.

Horner: Okay, that's fine.

Barker: Do we have one last question, or are we done? Can we be done now?

Questioner #13: Can you hear me here?

Horner: Yeah.

Questioner #13: What I'd like to say is that this God is just as guilty in my mind of all the evil that goes on in this world as any sinner that is committing a sin. I don't see how you can disassociate the happenings that go on in this world and say that this initial God is not responsible. I think that everything that goes on, if it's a reality, God would have to take his responsibility for the evil. I think this is a very confused place that we live in. And I certainly agree with that person there that if I had a god that I couldn't respect, in that Bible . . . it's a monstrous book. Even the fact that they couldn't appreciate the fact something died on a cross, and you put any status in something so evil. How can you think that that's uplifting? I think it's, like he says, completely ridiculous. In itself it is evil.

Moderator: Is there a question, please?

Questioner #13: Well, I'm commenting. That's a comment. I hope you appreciate the fact, because I think it's very true. If you have any intellect at all, how you could appreciate an evil book that only . . . everything that he says, putting down women, negating women, and murder, and retribution, every evil thing that you can think of.

Moderator: Thank you for your comment, ma'am. Thank you for your comment.

Moderator [Dustin Shramek]: Okay . . .

Horner: Could we respond to that? Because I wouldn't want the debate to end on that. I would like Dan to have his chance to respond, and then I would like to respond if . . . do you want to respond to that, Dan?

Barker: I respect her right to interpret the bible and the acts of the god of the bible that way, and I agree that much of what she says is right. The god of the bible is morally reprehensible in the things that he did, and we ought not to love and respect this being [because of] the way he's treated human beings and the way he's treated this world. There's a better way. There's a higher way. That god . . . I told you in our last debate that that god not only does not exist, that god could not exist, for very good logical reasons.

Horner: You see, to blame God for the evil in the world, one must prove that it's logically impossible that God could have good reasons for allowing what He's allowing for a greater good. Unless you can do that, prove it's logically impossible that God had good reasons, you can't draw the conclusion that God is not good. And as to the cross, the cross not being uplifting but evil, the cross is the perfect solution to the human dilemma, the problem that we all have, our own self-centeredness deep in our heart, that God himself satisfied the tension between his love for us and his holiness and justice that demanded that evil be punished, that Hitler be punished for what he did to the Jews, that I be punished for my self-centeredness. His holiness and justice demands that, but his love didn't want me to experience that punishment, or any of us, and so Jesus Christ's death on the cross is the perfect solution. He, paying the penalty which had to be paid because of his holiness and justice, but his love showing through because he paid the penalty for us. And all we have to do is respond and accept it. And the cross is the most uplifting story. It's the greatest news we could ever hear.

Moderator [Dustin Shramek]: All right. Thanks, everyone, for coming. If we could give a hand for Mr. Barker and for Mr. Horner. [applause]

Again, as you leave, if you could just leave the cards at the end. And also, there is literature at the table, somewhere out the door, I presume? Thanks a lot.

---

Alaykoum salam .