Suite du débat,
Suite du débat sur la réssurection de Jésus .
Mike: Not exactly, unless you're building an awful lot of options under the word "legendary."
Legendary could mean, sort of gradual, almost accidental embellishment without deliberate fabrication going on, or it could mean deliberate fabrication. So I would divide it into at least those two categories.
Dan: Okay, but it's either historical or it isn't, right?
Mike: Okay. Okay, sure.
Dan: Because there's no middle ground. It's some kind of a legend, or it's some kind of a myth, or some kind of a misunderstanding, or it's something other than history.
Mike: Well, it's either true or false. Those are your only two options.
Dan: Okay.
Mike: Yeah.
Dan: To illustrate this, let's bring it up to the 20th century. In 1981 -- let me see if I can find this here -- in 1981 there was a group of people in Yugoslavia. Do you know the story about Medjugorge?
Mike: Yeah.
Dan: Okay. June the 24th. There were these six people that were out on a hillside. They claimed that the Virgin Mary appeared to them, talked to them. They were able to touch her. The names of these people are Ivanka Ivankavic, Mirjana Dragecevic, I can't say [pronounce] them all. But these are real people with addresses and names. The next day they went back, and a few of the villagers went with them, just to see what was happening, and some of them said, Ah, they saw a light. The next day, the rumor had spread, and thousands . . .
Mike: Is this your time to ask me questions? I don't mean to interrupt.
Dan: I'm asking. This is important.
Mike: All right. All right.
Dan: The next day, thousands of people came from everywhere to see this. And they attested that they had seen a light, and they saw these people out there. All right? Since then, a lot of people, thousands and millions of people have been going to this place, this little tiny village of Medjugorge -- now, of course, there's hotels and all this stuff there -- and they, a lot of them claimed that they have been healed by going there. A lot of them claim that the message of the Virgin Mary was to look at the Sun and you'll see it spinning. A lot of them claimed that they could do that, that it was really real. Some of them actually burnt their eyes, but a lot of them didn't. So, here's a widely held belief by thousands of people, maybe millions of people. And according to you either the core of this belief is historical, or it isn't. Do you belief that the resurrected Virgin Mary really did appear to these six people?
Mike: Well, that's a great question. I'm unable to answer it because I haven't done an investigation into it right now. So what should the rational approach be to that? Well, it shouldn't be the approach that you take, which I call a "close-minded skepticism," that says, "No, miracles don't happen, so that just didn't happen. We can't allow miracles in our methodology." I would have what I call a "healthy skepticism," one that says, "Well, I don't know. I'm reserving judgment. I'm not going to assume that the people are lying, but I would have to do an investigation to determine whether there's any good evidence to support these claims or not." Until then, I will reserve judgment.
Dan: Well, I agree with you on that. I happen to be skeptical, too, Skepticism is exactly that. Skepticism is reserving judgment. It's not saying yes or no. So, you don't rule out the possibility that this is legendary, then?
Mike: Well, there's certain things in my background knowledge that I already hold that would count against this, and so there's some there, but I can't be absolutely sure until I do an investigation.
Dan: But could this be a legend? Could it be legendary?
Mike: Oh, it's that, well, it's possible. It's possible it's legendary. It's possible it's historical. I don't know.
Dan: Okay. I just scored a touchdown. Does anybody see why? Did anybody catch it?
Mike: I don't think so.
Dan: He just stepped into a whopping contradiction.
[Someone talking from the audience]
Dan: No, no, no. I'll explain it later. I don't want him to weasel out of it. He just stepped into a whopping contradiction.
Mike: Why don't you tell us right now? Come on.
Dan: Because, like a lot of fundamentalists, you're going to weasel your way, and say, "Oh, but I didn't mean what I said." Okay?
Mike: If you're going to accuse me of a contradiction, let's hear it, Dan. Let's hear it.
Dan: I will tell it in my closing statement that he blatantly contradicted himself.
Mike: In a closing statement where I won't have a chance to respond. You know, that's -- talk about weaseling. Let's hear it. [laughter]
Dan: Okay, well, I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what: somebody ask him a question about it, then, okay, afterwards, to give him a chance.
Mike: He still won't tell. He still won't tell me. Unbelievable.
Dan: Now, let's see, what was my final -- one minute left? -- what was my final question here? How do you know that women were not allowed to be witnesses in Jewish law? How do you know that?
Mike: From Jewish history. From Jewish rabinnic writings talking about . . .
Dan: Which ones?
Mike: I'm appealing to authorities there.
Dan: Okay. In fact, women were allowed to be witnesses in Jewish courts. You're wrong on that account. Even in the New Testament, Jesus admitted that a woman could divorce her husband. How could she do that if her testimony were not valid? In fact, according to the authorities that I have read, women's testimony did stand in a court of law if there was no man. Women were valued less, but women could testify if there was no male witness to it. So one of your facts is basically wrong.
Mike: But in the Resurrection there were male witnesses, so the fact that the women were listed then, is still counterproductive. They wouldn't have had to do that.
Dan: Time's up, right? Okay.
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